Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Deprecate dynamic properties

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  116404
November 16, 2021 09:16 rowan.collins@gmail.com (Rowan Tommins)
On 15/11/2021 17:20, Andreas Heigl wrote:

> When you are testing whether writing 'X' to a property and then > reading from that property gives that 'X' back, then everything should > be good.
I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests.
> Yes: That rips off a completely different topic: Testing "getters" and > "setters".
Unless you have zero business logic in your classes, testing getters and setters is absolutely not sufficient. Everywhere that accesses a private or protected property has the potential to mistype it and cause subtle bugs.
> That is absolutely correct. The main question is: "Do we *need* to > spot this behaviour in old code"? Not "Do we *want* to spot this > behaviour in old code".
Yes to both questions. A number of "uses" of this feature are not actually deliberate uses which need protecting by adding the attribute, they are mistakes that are going unnoticed in those warrens of untested, un-analysed code. Those code bases are exactly the ones that benefit from the language having the run-time checks built in. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
  116405
November 16, 2021 09:27 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
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Hey all

On 16.11.21 10:16, Rowan Tommins wrote:
> On 15/11/2021 17:20, Andreas Heigl wrote: >=20 >> When you are testing whether writing 'X' to a property and then=20 >> reading from that property gives that 'X' back, then everything should= =20
>> be good.=20 >=20 >=20 > I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without the= =20
> language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is all=20 > guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of PHP=20 > applications can claim such comprehensive tests.
The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a=20 property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language=20 level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code.
>=20 >=20 >> Yes: That rips off a completely different topic: Testing "getters" and= =20
>> "setters".=20 >=20 >=20 > Unless you have zero business logic in your classes, testing getters an= d=20
> setters is absolutely not sufficient. Everywhere that accesses a privat= e=20
> or protected property has the potential to mistype it and cause subtle =
> bugs. >=20 >=20 >> That is absolutely correct. The main question is: "Do we *need* to=20 >> spot this behaviour in old code"? Not "Do we *want* to spot this=20 >> behaviour in old code".=20 >=20 >=20 > Yes to both questions. A number of "uses" of this feature are not=20 > actually deliberate uses which need protecting by adding the attribute,= =20
> they are mistakes that are going unnoticed in those warrens of untested= ,=20
> un-analysed code. Those code bases are exactly the ones that benefit=20 > from the language having the run-time checks built in.
That highly depends on your view-point. There are a lot of people out=20 there that do not require that this behaviour *needs* to be spotted. Cheers Andreas --=20 ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0= 23'58" | | https://andreas.heigl.org | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --------------DCC6E4FCEE77E4F6C673C79A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFzEA7MBEACpvo0AbmZG6lUGMvDUebQcYVjOPrdqtnlb2WoZH9FrJyHyenzejO29VCjue= kdh u44sUNgEHXxExUekguLDGZOzC9926g2rGDWO3MU1oqRlKURnOWsp/i0d9WM07ihj/lL6smT9Y= Lea gtPCJporUiFW8JyIusBWWhlL8hp8ZDvEfmvi06xDXML3wXzH/KWmoew3LgdwCZPkQSIWemUDP= ZKc 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  116407
November 16, 2021 10:23 rowan.collins@gmail.com (Rowan Tommins)
On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote:
> >> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without >> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is >> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of >> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. > > The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a > property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language > level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code.
Whether the code is "new" or "old" is not what matters; what matters is whether the test suite is comprehensive enough that every possible mistake will be caught by a test. If it will, we can remove a whole bunch of language features - why use parameter and property types, for instance, if your tests guarantee that they will always be given correct values? For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the language tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you", which is what currently happens. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
  116414
November 16, 2021 14:59 neclimdul@gmail.com (James Gilliland)
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 4:23 AM Rowan Tommins collins@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote: > > > >> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without > >> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is > >> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of > >> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. > > > > The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a > > property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language > > level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code. > > > > For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP > 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the language > tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a > useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the > language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you", > which is what currently happens. >
What you described there sounds like a warning and not a fatal error. Maybe that's where some of the trepidation is coming from. I know I'm less worried about the deprecation notice and more worried about what happens in PHP 9 when it's a fatal error.
  116415
November 16, 2021 15:26 deleugyn@gmail.com (Deleu)
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 3:59 PM James Gilliland <neclimdul@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 4:23 AM Rowan Tommins collins@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote: > > > > > >> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without > > >> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is > > >> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of > > >> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. > > > > > > The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a > > > property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language > > > level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code. > > > > > > > > For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP > > 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the language > > tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a > > useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the > > language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you", > > which is what currently happens. > > > > What you described there sounds like a warning and not a fatal error. Maybe > that's where some of the trepidation is coming from. I know I'm less > worried about the deprecation notice and more worried about what happens in > PHP 9 when it's a fatal error. >
I can't say that this line of reasoning has its merits, but then there's no benefit to the engine itself. Issuing a warning and carry on materializing dynamic properties will never bring the original performance improvement that was part of the original state of the RFC. -- Marco Aurélio Deleu
  116416
November 16, 2021 16:00 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
--BDMuKZxW0a2WrqgLri8TmqhBoU06AG7hg
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Hey list.

On 16.11.21 16:26, Deleu wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 3:59 PM James Gilliland <neclimdul@gmail.com> w= rote:
>=20 >> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 4:23 AM Rowan Tommins collins@gmail.com= > >> wrote: >> >>> On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote: >>>> >>>>> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without=
>>>>> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour i= s
>>>>> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% o= f
>>>>> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. >>>> >>>> The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a >>>> property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the languag= e
>>>> level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code. >>> >>> >>> >>> For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP >>> 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the langu= age
>>> tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a >>> useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the >>> language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you",=
>>> which is what currently happens. >>> >> >> What you described there sounds like a warning and not a fatal error. = Maybe
>> that's where some of the trepidation is coming from. I know I'm less >> worried about the deprecation notice and more worried about what happe= ns in
>> PHP 9 when it's a fatal error. >> >=20 > I can't say that this line of reasoning has its merits, but then there'= s no
> benefit to the engine itself. Issuing a warning and carry on materializ= ing
> dynamic properties will never bring the original performance improvemen= t
> that was part of the original state of the RFC.
Which performance improvement of the "original state" of the RFC? As=20 that was one of the questions that were not 100% answered: What are the=20 benefits for the language. And while those 8 bit that Nikita mentioned=20 in the "Motivation" part of the RFC look nice, he also stated that "this = is a fairly long-term benefit that will require additional technical=20 work to realize". Or did I miss something? Cheers Andreas --=20 ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0= 23'58" | | https://andreas.heigl.org | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --------------F16981764FC49360954F6486 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFzEA7MBEACpvo0AbmZG6lUGMvDUebQcYVjOPrdqtnlb2WoZH9FrJyHyenzejO29VCjue= kdh u44sUNgEHXxExUekguLDGZOzC9926g2rGDWO3MU1oqRlKURnOWsp/i0d9WM07ihj/lL6smT9Y= Lea gtPCJporUiFW8JyIusBWWhlL8hp8ZDvEfmvi06xDXML3wXzH/KWmoew3LgdwCZPkQSIWemUDP= ZKc 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  116417
November 16, 2021 16:24 drealecs@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Alexandru_P=C4=83tr=C4=83nescu?=)
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:00 PM Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org> wrote:

> Hey list.
> Which performance improvement of the "original state" of the RFC? As > that was one of the questions that were not 100% answered: What are the > benefits for the language. And while those 8 bit that Nikita mentioned > in the "Motivation" part of the RFC look nice, he also stated that "this > is a fairly long-term benefit that will require additional technical > work to realize". >
I think these two messages might have some information about the performance improvements: https://externals.io/message/115800#115848 https://externals.io/message/115800#115872 Yes, maybe not everything was captured in the final RFC text. I also think all the evaluated options should have been present in the RFC as it brings more context to voters. Regards, Alex