Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Deprecate dynamic properties

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  116381
November 15, 2021 17:20 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
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Hey Rowan, hey all

On 15.11.21 17:52, Rowan Tommins wrote:
> On 15/11/2021 16:23, Andreas Heigl wrote: >> One thing, that can verify the correct working of properties, whether =
>> that is dynamic or static ones, is testing. >=20 >=20 > Can it? I can't actually see how that would work, without also having a= =20
> way to detect when dynamic properties were accessed, which brings us=20 > full circle. Also:
When you are testing whether writing 'X' to a property and then reading=20 from that property gives that 'X' back, then everything should be good. You either typed the name of the property correctly or you have a typo=20 in the setter and getter (or however you set and got the value).=20 Nevertheless you should be able to figure out whether you accidentally=20 misstyped a property name somewhere as that should break the test=20 (unless you misstyped the name twice). ANd whether you are doing the=20 assignement to a static property or to a dynamic one should be=20 irrelevant, the reading and the writing process are the same. Yes: That rips off a completely different topic: Testing "getters" and=20 "setters".
>=20 >> So the mistakes-part would be easy to handle.=20 >=20 > If you are working with a million lines of code going back 20 years,=20 > "write tests for everything" is not "easy to handle"; it's a long-term =
> ambition which you chip away at when priorities allow.
The intention is not to write tests for existing code. As the intention=20 is exactly to be able to leave existing code as it is. Otherwise the=20 approach to "add the Attribute and be done" would be much easier. The intention is much more to make sure that *new* code does not write=20 accidentally to the wrong property. Which is what this RFC is all about. = Make sure that dynamic properties are not accidentally used.
>=20 > "Logging all deprecations and warnings on a production workload",=20 > however, *is* easy to handle. Diagnostic messages in logs are the *only= *=20
> way this behaviour will be spotted in old code.
That is absolutely correct. The main question is: "Do we *need* to spot=20 this behaviour in old code"? Not "Do we *want* to spot this behaviour in = old code".
>=20 >=20 >> What I am still missing is the differentiation between "everything is =
>> strict and you have to explicitly opt-in to make it dynamic" and an=20 >> "everything is dynamic and you can use a marker to mark this=20 >> explicitly an intended behaviour". That would allow users to mark a=20 >> class explicitly to use dynamic features even though it would make no =
>> difference code-wise. >=20 >=20 > I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean, create the attribute, =
> but don't actually do anything with it? Would the plan be to deprecate =
> later? Never remove at all? As currently there is no direct intention to remove the feature for=20
good, why should we force it? And espechialy why do we need to force=20 those maintinaing existing code to adapt their code? For now the possibility could be to keep everything *as is*. Plus add an = attribute to make absolutely explicit that we want to use this feature. The next step could then be to create a setting that will notify about=20 dynamic assignments in classes that are not marked by the attribute. I'm = not talking about a deprecation note here. More something like a notice=20 (not a warning as that is too severe!). That way the behaviour can come=20 up in log files. Perhaps a new Level of notice like a=20 "bad_coding_practice". Or we use different "lanes" of reporting. One for = notices, errors, warnings et al and one for deprecations and such=20 asignment-oddities. When that has been done (should so far all be BC) and code-maintainers=20 have had enough time to modify their codebase (definition of "enough=20 time" is here clearly the main topic and needs discussion with=20 maintainers!) then we can talk about possibly phasing out the feature. My 0.02=E2=82=AC Cheers Andreas --=20 ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0= 23'58" | | https://andreas.heigl.org | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --------------349AB84A6DD4E821B5C3754B Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFzEA7MBEACpvo0AbmZG6lUGMvDUebQcYVjOPrdqtnlb2WoZH9FrJyHyenzejO29VCjue= kdh u44sUNgEHXxExUekguLDGZOzC9926g2rGDWO3MU1oqRlKURnOWsp/i0d9WM07ihj/lL6smT9Y= Lea gtPCJporUiFW8JyIusBWWhlL8hp8ZDvEfmvi06xDXML3wXzH/KWmoew3LgdwCZPkQSIWemUDP= ZKc 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  116404
November 16, 2021 09:16 rowan.collins@gmail.com (Rowan Tommins)
On 15/11/2021 17:20, Andreas Heigl wrote:

> When you are testing whether writing 'X' to a property and then > reading from that property gives that 'X' back, then everything should > be good.
I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests.
> Yes: That rips off a completely different topic: Testing "getters" and > "setters".
Unless you have zero business logic in your classes, testing getters and setters is absolutely not sufficient. Everywhere that accesses a private or protected property has the potential to mistype it and cause subtle bugs.
> That is absolutely correct. The main question is: "Do we *need* to > spot this behaviour in old code"? Not "Do we *want* to spot this > behaviour in old code".
Yes to both questions. A number of "uses" of this feature are not actually deliberate uses which need protecting by adding the attribute, they are mistakes that are going unnoticed in those warrens of untested, un-analysed code. Those code bases are exactly the ones that benefit from the language having the run-time checks built in. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
  116405
November 16, 2021 09:27 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
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Hey all

On 16.11.21 10:16, Rowan Tommins wrote:
> On 15/11/2021 17:20, Andreas Heigl wrote: >=20 >> When you are testing whether writing 'X' to a property and then=20 >> reading from that property gives that 'X' back, then everything should= =20
>> be good.=20 >=20 >=20 > I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without the= =20
> language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is all=20 > guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of PHP=20 > applications can claim such comprehensive tests.
The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a=20 property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language=20 level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code.
>=20 >=20 >> Yes: That rips off a completely different topic: Testing "getters" and= =20
>> "setters".=20 >=20 >=20 > Unless you have zero business logic in your classes, testing getters an= d=20
> setters is absolutely not sufficient. Everywhere that accesses a privat= e=20
> or protected property has the potential to mistype it and cause subtle =
> bugs. >=20 >=20 >> That is absolutely correct. The main question is: "Do we *need* to=20 >> spot this behaviour in old code"? Not "Do we *want* to spot this=20 >> behaviour in old code".=20 >=20 >=20 > Yes to both questions. A number of "uses" of this feature are not=20 > actually deliberate uses which need protecting by adding the attribute,= =20
> they are mistakes that are going unnoticed in those warrens of untested= ,=20
> un-analysed code. Those code bases are exactly the ones that benefit=20 > from the language having the run-time checks built in.
That highly depends on your view-point. There are a lot of people out=20 there that do not require that this behaviour *needs* to be spotted. Cheers Andreas --=20 ,,, (o o) +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ | Andreas Heigl | | mailto:andreas@heigl.org N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0= 23'58" | | https://andreas.heigl.org | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ --------------DCC6E4FCEE77E4F6C673C79A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xA8D5437ECE724FE5.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFzEA7MBEACpvo0AbmZG6lUGMvDUebQcYVjOPrdqtnlb2WoZH9FrJyHyenzejO29VCjue= kdh u44sUNgEHXxExUekguLDGZOzC9926g2rGDWO3MU1oqRlKURnOWsp/i0d9WM07ihj/lL6smT9Y= Lea gtPCJporUiFW8JyIusBWWhlL8hp8ZDvEfmvi06xDXML3wXzH/KWmoew3LgdwCZPkQSIWemUDP= ZKc 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  116407
November 16, 2021 10:23 rowan.collins@gmail.com (Rowan Tommins)
On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote:
> >> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without >> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is >> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of >> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. > > The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a > property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language > level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code.
Whether the code is "new" or "old" is not what matters; what matters is whether the test suite is comprehensive enough that every possible mistake will be caught by a test. If it will, we can remove a whole bunch of language features - why use parameter and property types, for instance, if your tests guarantee that they will always be given correct values? For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the language tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you", which is what currently happens. Regards, -- Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
  116414
November 16, 2021 14:59 neclimdul@gmail.com (James Gilliland)
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 4:23 AM Rowan Tommins collins@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote: > > > >> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without > >> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is > >> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of > >> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. > > > > The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a > > property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language > > level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code. > > > > For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP > 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the language > tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a > useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the > language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you", > which is what currently happens. >
What you described there sounds like a warning and not a fatal error. Maybe that's where some of the trepidation is coming from. I know I'm less worried about the deprecation notice and more worried about what happens in PHP 9 when it's a fatal error.
  116415
November 16, 2021 15:26 deleugyn@gmail.com (Deleu)
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 3:59 PM James Gilliland <neclimdul@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 4:23 AM Rowan Tommins collins@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote: > > > > > >> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without > > >> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour is > > >> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% of > > >> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. > > > > > > The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a > > > property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the language > > > level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code. > > > > > > > > For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP > > 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the language > > tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a > > useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the > > language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you", > > which is what currently happens. > > > > What you described there sounds like a warning and not a fatal error. Maybe > that's where some of the trepidation is coming from. I know I'm less > worried about the deprecation notice and more worried about what happens in > PHP 9 when it's a fatal error. >
I can't say that this line of reasoning has its merits, but then there's no benefit to the engine itself. Issuing a warning and carry on materializing dynamic properties will never bring the original performance improvement that was part of the original state of the RFC. -- Marco Aurélio Deleu
  116416
November 16, 2021 16:00 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
--BDMuKZxW0a2WrqgLri8TmqhBoU06AG7hg
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Hey list.

On 16.11.21 16:26, Deleu wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 3:59 PM James Gilliland <neclimdul@gmail.com> w= rote:
>=20 >> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 4:23 AM Rowan Tommins collins@gmail.com= > >> wrote: >> >>> On 16/11/2021 09:27, Andreas Heigl wrote: >>>> >>>>> I see, yes, code that is 100% perfectly tested can get away without=
>>>>> the language performing any error checking at all - the behaviour i= s
>>>>> all guaranteed by the tests. I would be very surprised if even 1% o= f
>>>>> PHP applications can claim such comprehensive tests. >>>> >>>> The topic here was that new code can verify the declaration of a >>>> property by using tests. That does not need to happen on the languag= e
>>>> level. I was never talking about adding tests for existing code. >>> >>> >>> >>> For most code bases, even new ones being written from scratch in PHP >>> 8.0, that level of testing simply doesn't exist, and having the langu= age
>>> tell you "hey, you wrote $this->loger instead of $this->logger" is a >>> useful feature. And, in a lot of cases, more useful than having the >>> language say "OK, I've created your dynamic $loger property for you",=
>>> which is what currently happens. >>> >> >> What you described there sounds like a warning and not a fatal error. = Maybe
>> that's where some of the trepidation is coming from. I know I'm less >> worried about the deprecation notice and more worried about what happe= ns in
>> PHP 9 when it's a fatal error. >> >=20 > I can't say that this line of reasoning has its merits, but then there'= s no
> benefit to the engine itself. Issuing a warning and carry on materializ= ing
> dynamic properties will never bring the original performance improvemen= t
> that was part of the original state of the RFC.
Which performance improvement of the "original state" of the RFC? As=20 that was one of the questions that were not 100% answered: What are the=20 benefits for the language. And while those 8 bit that Nikita mentioned=20 in the "Motivation" part of the RFC look nice, he also stated that "this = is a fairly long-term benefit that will require additional technical=20 work to realize". Or did I miss something? 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  116417
November 16, 2021 16:24 drealecs@gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Alexandru_P=C4=83tr=C4=83nescu?=)
On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:00 PM Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org> wrote:

> Hey list.
> Which performance improvement of the "original state" of the RFC? As > that was one of the questions that were not 100% answered: What are the > benefits for the language. And while those 8 bit that Nikita mentioned > in the "Motivation" part of the RFC look nice, he also stated that "this > is a fairly long-term benefit that will require additional technical > work to realize". >
I think these two messages might have some information about the performance improvements: https://externals.io/message/115800#115848 https://externals.io/message/115800#115872 Yes, maybe not everything was captured in the final RFC text. I also think all the evaluated options should have been present in the RFC as it brings more context to voters. Regards, Alex