Re: [PHP-DEV] Community vote on RFCs

  111641
August 19, 2020 22:50 paul.crovella@gmail.com (Paul Crovella)
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:35 PM Benjamin Morel morel@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Paul! > > I'm writing off list to avoid polluting the thread too much.
I'm writing on list because it's weird that you call this pollution.
> Could you please care to explain your negative reaction to this proposal? > > Kind regards, > Benjamin
You're asking for useless, no-effort feedback in the form of votes from people who have no actual involvement in the ongoing development or maintenance of the project, so that's what I gave you. That you felt compelled to ask me about it highlights this significant shortcoming of the proposal.
> On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 at 00:27, Paul Crovella crovella@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> -1 >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:28 PM Benjamin Morel morel@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hi internals, >> > >> > The heated debate about attribute syntax made me think once again that it >> > would be valuable to get feedback in the form of votes from the community, >> > not just from core developers, on RFCs under discussion. >> > >> > Understandably, the RFC voting process needs to be restricted to carefully >> > selected people, mostly core developers. But the fact is, this process is a >> > bit elitist, and fails to represent the community as a whole. A recent >> > thread <https://externals.io/message/111552> showed that even very active >> > contributors to OSS are unlikely to ever get a vote. >> > >> > A project being nothing without its users, it would be nice to know whether >> > an important change will make them happy or not. >> > >> > Therefore, I have in mind to develop (time permitting) an experimental >> > tool, external to the PHP wiki, that would replicate the voting options of >> > each RFC, but would allow everyone with a GitHub account to vote on the >> > same options as the original RFC. While the vote results would not directly >> > affect the wiki's vote results, I guess that this community feedback could >> > be taken into consideration by wiki voters and help them make an informed >> > decision. >> > >> > To be useful, a link to the community voting site would need to be present >> > in each RFC, ideally some time before the actual voting starts on the wiki. >> > >> > If popular enough, this tool could offer some analysis capabilities, such >> > as "what's the vote results from people having at least 100 commits to the >> > top 1000 packagist projects in the last year?" to help filter out the noise. >> > >> > Thoughts? >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > Benjamin
  111642
August 19, 2020 23:18 benjamin.morel@gmail.com (Benjamin Morel)
> > You're asking for useless, no-effort feedback in the form of votes > from people who have no actual involvement in the ongoing development > or maintenance of the project, so that's what I gave you.
I'm surprised by these strong feelings. As a contributor and maintainer of several open source projects, I'm always influenced by the number of thumbs up/down feedback a message receives when reading discussions on GitHub, whether they are from members/contributors of the project, or from seemingly strangers. Of course, I'll often check *who *the feedback is coming from, and this influences me as well. I feel like this kind of feedback on the RFCs would be valuable to people who have a right to vote, especially if there was a way to extract specifically the feedback from open source project leads or heavy contributors. But you may disagree, of course. - Benjamin
  111644
August 20, 2020 05:41 sergey@s-panteleev.ru (Sergey Panteleev)
Hi, Benjamin,

I think Nikita's suggestion is suitable for these purposes: https://github.com/php/php-rfcs.

At the moment this is an experimental repository, but in this case, it will be quite possible to get feedback from the community: e.g., https://github.com/php/php-rfcs/pull/1.

wbr,
Sergey Panteleev
On 20 Aug 2020, 02:19 +0300, Benjamin Morel morel@gmail.com>, wrote:
> > I'm surprised by these strong feelings. As a contributor and maintainer of > several open source projects, I'm always influenced by the number of thumbs > up/down feedback a message receives when reading discussions on GitHub, > whether they are from members/contributors of the project, or from > seemingly strangers. Of course, I'll often check *who *the feedback is > coming from, and this influences me as well. > > I feel like this kind of feedback on the RFCs would be valuable to people > who have a right to vote, especially if there was a way to extract > specifically the feedback from open source project leads or heavy > contributors. > > But you may disagree, of course.
  111675
August 21, 2020 21:09 matthewmatthew@gmail.com (Matthew Brown)
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 at 01:42, Sergey Panteleev <sergey@s-panteleev.ru>
wrote:

> Hi, Benjamin, > > I think Nikita's suggestion is suitable for these purposes: > https://github.com/php/php-rfcs. > > At the moment this is an experimental repository, but in this case, it > will be quite possible to get feedback from the community: e.g., > https://github.com/php/php-rfcs/pull/1. > > wbr, > Sergey Panteleev > > I really liked this approach.
As a non-voting member of the PHP community, I'm generally a fan of the status quo. I like that the people who spend time maintaining PHP generally have the final say on new PHP features. Honestly, I wish there were fewer eligible voters, concentrated amongst people who have contributed internal code in the last five years.
  111660
August 20, 2020 22:43 paul.crovella@gmail.com (Paul Crovella)
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 4:19 PM Benjamin Morel morel@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> You're asking for useless, no-effort feedback in the form of votes >> from people who have no actual involvement in the ongoing development >> or maintenance of the project, so that's what I gave you. > > > I'm surprised by these strong feelings. As a contributor and maintainer of several open source projects, I'm always influenced by the number of thumbs up/down feedback a message receives when reading discussions on GitHub, whether they are from members/contributors of the project, or from seemingly strangers. Of course, I'll often check who the feedback is coming from, and this influences me as well. > > I feel like this kind of feedback on the RFCs would be valuable to people who have a right to vote, especially if there was a way to extract specifically the feedback from open source project leads or heavy contributors. > > But you may disagree, of course. > > - Benjamin
Would you have asked me to justify my position were it a "+1" instead? Would you have still referred to it as pollution? I'm betting probably not. This isn't a shot at you personally, questioning and criticizing disagreement while accepting agreement without challenge is the default thing people do - and it's part of why the polls you're after have so little value as a feedback mechanism. If they agree with you great - you've got a cudgel to use against those who disagree. If they disagree with you then who cares - the poll itself was flawed (wording, selection bias, etc.) and can be discounted out of hand as there was no actual feedback to address. Heck, if you do it right you can even pick and choose the votes you want based on merit badges (or whatever other bar finds you agreement) then get on with derailing substantive discussion to talk about the poll. The absolute least useful thing someone can do is vote in a non-binding poll then sit on their hands expecting it to matter. It's 100% noise. You might as well spend your day signing petitions on facebook. In addition the premise for your proposal is flawed and somewhat insulting - the community already has a vote on every RFC. Lots of them, in fact. All of them. Every single vote comes from a member of the PHP community. And practically everyone, with voting privilege or without, can meaningfully participate by joining the discussion. "The community" isn't limited to people on reddit or your favorite OSS clique and there's nothing stopping anyone from having a voice.