Re: [PHP-DEV] Changing fundamental language behaviors

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  107048
September 13, 2019 07:41 lester@lsces.uk (Lester Caine)
On 12/09/2019 23:16, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>> How many of those are actually developers? Because the way I understand this numbers, "powering the web", that doesn't mean 34% are also developers. It wouldn't surprise me if a big portion of these applications could've also be a system written in another language, deployed, plugins installed, added some themes and done, no PHP knowledge required. > Most WordPress users are*not* programmers. > > Which is why introducing breaking changes to PHP will potentially affect them so negatively; because they have no programmers on staff nor any skill to fix the problem. Which means they will have to hire expensive programmers — like me!!! — to fix a problem that from their perspective they do not understand nor will even recognize a benefit when the code is "fixed." > > Again, I am just presenting this perspective on this list. Those who vote on this list will decide if breaking WordPress end-user's site bothers them or not.
Something which does not help here is the way WordPress enforces upgrades that may not be compatible with all elements of the themes that the user currently has active. I AM a programmer rather than a web designer and am having trouble keeping WordPress sites stable. To that end I have decided simply to freeze at PHP7.2 for various reasons but WordPress is now complaining that the version of PHP is out of date. One just can't win ... some of the WordPress sites themes will not even work with PHP7 (or WP5) at all. So we *DO* need an LTS version of PHP that will run perfectly functional websites for the next ten years while others create the next replacement for the likes of WordPress by moving framework functionality inside PHP ... Much of the discussion on new features cut across the ways frameworks already handle that functionality ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk
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September 13, 2019 08:10 cschneid@cschneid.com (Christian Schneider)
Am 13.09.2019 um 09:41 schrieb Lester Caine <lester@lsces.uk>:
> On 12/09/2019 23:16, Mike Schinkel wrote: >> Those who vote on this list will decide if breaking WordPress end-user's site bothers them or not.
That's something too few people on this list seem to be aware of: Breaking other people's perfectly functional code because you believe in a different coding style is not something which should be done easily.
> So we *DO* need an LTS version of PHP that will run perfectly functional websites for the next ten years while others create the next replacement for the likes of WordPress by moving framework functionality inside PHP ...
I agree! Which means there will be additional burden on the PHP core developers as there will be another version to back port security fixes to for a long time. Also not a decision to be made lightly. While I do like democracy I also agree with Zeev that it is too easy for people to vote yes on a breaking change even if they didn't think it through. So if you voted yes for any change of a notice/warning to an exception (which will break things) please reconsider! Is it really worth it? And if you really think so, could we make it opt-in? Or at least globally opt-out-able? - Chris
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September 13, 2019 08:18 kontakt@beberlei.de (Benjamin Eberlei)
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 10:10 AM Christian Schneider <cschneid@cschneid.com>
wrote:

> Am 13.09.2019 um 09:41 schrieb Lester Caine <lester@lsces.uk>: > > On 12/09/2019 23:16, Mike Schinkel wrote: > >> Those who vote on this list will decide if breaking WordPress > end-user's site bothers them or not. > > That's something too few people on this list seem to be aware of: > Breaking other people's perfectly functional code because you believe in a > different coding style is not something which should be done easily. > > > So we *DO* need an LTS version of PHP that will run perfectly functional > websites for the next ten years while others create the next replacement > for the likes of WordPress by moving framework functionality inside PHP ... > > I agree! > Which means there will be additional burden on the PHP core developers as > there will be another version to back port security fixes to for a long > time. Also not a decision to be made lightly. >
I would think that this is exactly what a company like Zend would charge their customers for. Microsoft is doing it for free for 5.6, I imagine for their bigger Azure customres here: https://github.com/microsoft/php-src LTS versions should not be the responsibility of the core developers, they are the responsibile of a legal entity with financial means that either directly sponsors the OSS project (Ubuntu) or is downstream of the project (RedHat). PHP is entirely a community project of volunteers that is already hanging by a thread given the workload.
> While I do like democracy I also agree with Zeev that it is too easy for > people to vote yes on a breaking change even if they didn't think it > through. > > So if you voted yes for any change of a notice/warning to an exception > (which will break things) please reconsider! > Is it really worth it? And if you really think so, could we make it > opt-in? Or at least globally opt-out-able? > > - Chris > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > >
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September 13, 2019 08:28 markyr@gmail.com (Mark Randall)
On 13/09/2019 09:10, Christian Schneider wrote:
> Is it really worth it?
It's absolutely worth it. Stopping execution flow at erroneous or ambiguous statements is an essential part of secure, reliable programming. A notice or warning offers no protection at all. Unless you've taken some very specific steps, your program will continue operating as if they never happened, even if that notice or warning was clearly a high probability of being a bug.
> And if you really think so, could we make it opt-in?
People should not have to opt in to common sense defaults. If I sell you a car, you shouldn't have to opt in to having the bolts on your tyres fastened on tight enough that the wheels don't fall off the moment you hit motorway speed.
> Or at least globally opt-out-able?
Let's not. Never again should an option like enable_short_tags exist. If you want a per-file opt out, the notion of declare(sloppy=1); Has already been jokingly proposed, and I would personally have no problem with it if people want to opt-in to less reliable enforcement... but once again, I stress that the defaults should always be best-practices. -- Mark Randall
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September 13, 2019 09:10 php-lists@koalephant.com (Stephen Reay)
> On 13 Sep 2019, at 15:28, Mark Randall <markyr@gmail.com> wrote: > > the notion of > > declare(sloppy=1); > > Has already been jokingly proposed,
Who ever said it was a joke proposal? :-P