Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: P++: FAQ

  106527
August 10, 2019 15:04 rasmus@lerdorf.com (Rasmus Lerdorf)
On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 5:37 AM Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me> wrote:

> As the person who initially proposed and implemented strict_types, I > think this is heading in the wrong direction. Perhaps that directive was > a mistake, if it will lead to so many attempts inspired by it to > fragment the language, including this one. Personally, I don't actually > want a language like C++ or Java. PHP's flexibility is great, and I > think splitting the language means going in a direction where you are > forced to have everything be strict or nothing be. PHP++ sounds like > Hack, but in mainline. I think it'll end up a mess in the long term. >
Yes, I would suspect it would get a bit weird having a AnythingGoes vs. NothingGoes barrier in the code like that. Forcing a balance, even if sometimes the arguments get rather heated (and they were just as heated, if not more so 20+ years ago), keeps everyone on the same page and working on the same code-base without the us vs. them situation that is bound to creep in. -Rasmus
  106530
August 10, 2019 16:08 cschneid@cschneid.com (Christian Schneider)
Am 10.08.2019 um 17:04 schrieb Rasmus Lerdorf <rasmus@lerdorf.com>:
> On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 5:37 AM Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me> wrote: > >> As the person who initially proposed and implemented strict_types, I >> think this is heading in the wrong direction. Perhaps that directive was >> a mistake, if it will lead to so many attempts inspired by it to >> fragment the language, including this one. Personally, I don't actually >> want a language like C++ or Java. PHP's flexibility is great, and I >> think splitting the language means going in a direction where you are >> forced to have everything be strict or nothing be. PHP++ sounds like >> Hack, but in mainline. I think it'll end up a mess in the long term.
I very much agree with this. I see strict_types as an attempt to cater to both factions but if it is used as a precedent to all kind of language fragmentation proposals then I'm regretting it.
> Yes, I would suspect it would get a bit weird having a AnythingGoes > vs. NothingGoes barrier in the code like that. Forcing a balance, even > if sometimes the arguments get rather heated (and they were just as > heated, if not more so 20+ years ago), keeps everyone on the same > page and working on the same code-base without the us vs. them > situation that is bound to creep in.
I do not believe in the language mode/version model but instead agree that trying to get on the same page is worth some discussions. I'm just a bit surprised and disappointed that the discussions recently got so out of hand. There is a very vocal minority right now asking for BC breaking language changes who IMHO are a bit too quick dismissing opinions of very distinguished PHP developers. I think there should be some sort of respectful meritocracy (no, I'm not asking to introduce a formal system based on karma or something like that), minimally meaning: Listening to people with years of experience in PHP development and history. It strikes me as odd that new features are often marketed with "if you don't need it, don't use it" but the same people then ask for deprecation / removal of features they personally don't use. Even if the advantages of the removal is minor. I'm accepting a lot of complications in the PHP core for features I don't use already, but I'd expect the same respect for different (e.g. more dynamic) coding styles and older code bases. Language fragmentation is not a sustainable solution, we do not want a Python2 vs. Python3 scenario. - Chris
  106532
August 10, 2019 16:59 markyr@gmail.com (Mark Randall)
On 10/08/2019 17:08, Christian Schneider wrote:
> There is a very vocal minority right now asking for BC breaking language changes who IMHO are a bit too quick dismissing opinions of very distinguished PHP developers.
I would just question the assertion that it's a vocal minority when viewed in a wider context. In the realms of internals it may be, but this discussion board represents at most a miniscule fraction of those using PHP. Outside of these walls, on the likes of reddit, discord and other discussion mediums, it is my take that the majority seem to favour a leaner, cleaner, stricter language, even at the cost of some backwards compatibility. This is of course anecdotal, but I voted on a survey a few days ago and just checked the results again just now, and it shows the vast majority of people on that forum were in favour of pushing the language at the cost of backwards compatibility. Prioritizing backwards compatibility did not receive a strong response. I seem to remember listening to Nikita on Derick's podcast a while ago where he made comment on his observation that newer generation programmers were looking for improved typing and strictness. Mark Randall